After 5 pages figured Squalie deserved his own thread:
"Well, today I bought the Overlord British/USA book. 300 pages of coolness.
When I got home I took count of what I have so far:
1 jeep
2 Crusader
4 Sherman
3 Firefly
8 Cromwell
4 Sexton
6 Defrocked Priest
4 M5 Halftrack
2 M10 3"
6 Universal Carrier
3 Wasp Carrier
4 25pdr
Lots of:
Rifle/MG teams
Piat
Mortar
Vickers
Observer team
What else should I get? Knowing that "should" is a subjective term. I think I'd like Challengers and go as much "straight" British as possible, or am I just confused about all of this?
There's so many darn things to choose from in the Overlord book that I'm a little overwhelmed. Does it make much of a difference if I make a very themed army tied to a particular group; Desert Rats, Polish, 12th Manitoba Dragoons, 4th Canadian Armoured, etc?
I went to watch the event at the Dragons Den today in Saskatoon and it looked awesome. Seemed like nice guys, but I didn't bother with too many questions as they were obviously fighting a war! "
Will post here a few ideas for lists that are out of that book for you Squalie
As a new player this might be the quickest to assemble and play with:
Reluctant Veteran Desert Rats Armoured Squadron
British Late-War
Tank Company
Platoon Qty Unit Points
Headquarters
Desert Rats Armoured Squadron HQ (7th) p.81
2 Cromwell IV
= 170
Combat Platoons
Desert Rats Armoured Platoon (7th) p.81
3 Cromwell IV
1 Firefly VC
= 360
Desert Rats Armoured Platoon (7th) p.81
3 Cromwell IV
1 Firefly VC
= 360
Weapons Platoon
Armoured Recce Anti-aircraft Platoon (7th) p.84
2 Crusader A/A
= 85
Motor Platoon (7th) p.102
1 Cmd MG team
1 PIAT team
1 Light Mortar team
4 M5 half-track
3 MG team
= 110
Support Platoons
Rifle Platoon (C3rd) Confident Trained p.144
1 Cmd Rifle/MG team
1 PIAT team
1 Light Mortar team
6 Rifle/MG team
2 Defrocked Priest APC
= 170
Field Battery (SP), Royal Artillery (7th) p.121
2 Cmd Rifle team
1 Staff team
1 Sherman OP
4 Sexton
= 220
Field Battery, Royal Artillery (7th) p.120
2 Cmd Rifle team
1 Staff team
1 Sherman OP
4 OQF 25 pdr gun
= 175
Company Points: 1650
Here is another one that you will probably do well with but will take longer to assemble:
Confident Trained Rifle Company (C3rd)
Canadian Late-War
Infantry Company
Platoon Qty Unit Points
Headquarters
Rifle Company HQ (C3rd) p.143
2 Cmd Rifle team
1 Jeep
1 Sniper team
= 80
Combat Platoons
Rifle Platoon (C3rd) p.144
1 Cmd Rifle/MG team
1 PIAT team
1 Light Mortar team
6 Rifle/MG team
= 150
Rifle Platoon (C3rd) p.144
1 Cmd Rifle/MG team
1 PIAT team
1 Light Mortar team
6 Rifle/MG team
= 150
Weapons Platoons
Carrier Platoon (C3rd) p.145
4 Universal Carrier
2 Universal Carrier with PIAT anti-tank projector
3 Wasp Carrier
= 265
Brigade Support
Heavy Mortar Platoon (C3rd) p.149
1 Cmd Rifle team
1 Observer Rifle team
4 ML 4.2" Mortar
= 130
Support Platoons
Desert Rats Armoured Platoon (7th) Reluctant Veteran p.81
3 Cromwell IV
1 Firefly VC
= 360
Desert Rats Armoured Platoon (7th) Reluctant Veteran p.81
3 Cromwell IV
1 Firefly VC
= 360
Infantry Field Battery, Royal Artillery (C3rd) p.156
2 Cmd Rifle team
1 Staff team
1 Observer Rifle team
1 OP Carrier
4 OQF 25 pdr gun
= 150
Company Points: 1645
Con - with what you have I struggled to get an even platoon count = the missions that have half on half off will limit you to three platoons to start with (which is a deccent amount though - just would have liked to get 1/2 on)
Pro - your opponent will need to kill four platoons in order break your company
After all the things I bought, I saw the Guards Armoured Recce Company Box, which I simply couldn't believe as that's EXACTLY what I wanted the whole time.
One box (BRAB07) comes with:
2 Cromwell HQ
3 Cromwell/ 1 Challenger
3 Cromwell/ 1 Challenger
3 Stuarts
4 M10 3"
So, going through the Market Garden Book, I noticed the list for this but am still confused as to what I should fill the rest in with. If it's the 11th Armoured, the above comes out to about 1200 points.
What should I fill it out with? I need boots on the ground so a rifle company or 5 would be a good start. Not a lot of points left though.
Should I drop the 4 M10's? Turn those into another Cromwell/Challenger group which is cheaper?
M10s are fantastic tank killers but are well known as "glass cannons" as they just cannot take the return fire also if you have to assualt with them they have to fall back after taking 5+ hits as they are open topped.
We should have a blue on blue / training game with your British and my "British" to show you where you might some "holes".
Quote from: Lance on June 02, 2014, 08:53:14 AM
M10s are fantastic tank killers but are well known as "glass cannons" as they just cannot take the return fire also if you have to assualt with them they have to fall back after taking 5+ hits as they are open topped.
We should have a blue on blue / training game with your British and my "British" to show you where you might some "holes".
A rule people also miss is, because they are open topped they also break off the assault if they are "pinned", Unlike fully armoured vehicles where you need 2 bailed or something.
Even though armoured units can't technically be pinned, in an assault open topped vehicles can.
Quote from: Lance on June 02, 2014, 08:53:14 AM
also if you have to assualt with them they have to fall back after taking 5+ hits as they are open topped.
Right... :confused... :lol
Not gonna lie, I barely understood that. Is that bad? Is that why you rarely see M10's?
Quote from: squalie on June 02, 2014, 09:18:35 PM
Not gonna lie, I barely understood that. Is that bad? Is that why you rarely see M10's?
lol Apparently neither did I. Lance was saying the same thing I did. :beer
M10'a are fine. Just don't assault with them....or let them get shot at. :excited
:)
Exactly - play a game with them and then you start to see what works with your style and what you thought should work goes up in smoke.
Kage, you've been kind of quite as of late. I can't have that as you're part of the reason I got into Flames of War.
I will say that Easy army is the handiest thing ever! How come they don't have the Villers Bocage book in their list?
Quote from: squalie on June 03, 2014, 09:27:57 PM
Kage, you've been kind of quite as of late. I can't have that as you're part of the reason I got into Flames of War.
I will say that Easy army is the handiest thing ever! How come they don't have the Villers Bocage book in their list?
Because that book has been replaced...twice now. ;)
Ah - got it. Didn't realize they replaced them, just thought they added more.
That's too bad as the Desert Rat list in Villers was really cheap! :D
The book you want for that is Overlord. You may find that they are even cheaper.
Hey Lance with squalie getting British stuff we should do a Firestorm Caen. I have a new player as well, i'm trying to get going, when I can find time.
My friend would play Germans, I can play Canadians. Although none of my Canadians are painted, I just spent the last month building all the tanks.
Quote from: Kage on June 04, 2014, 07:30:10 AM
The book you want for that is Overlord. You may find that they are even cheaper.
He picked that up first - so all good!
Quote from: Kage on June 04, 2014, 07:43:02 AM
Hey Lance with squalie getting British stuff we should do a Firestorm Caen. I have a new player as well, i'm trying to get going, when I can find time.
My friend would play Germans, I can play Canadians. Although none of my Canadians are painted, I just spent the last month building all the tanks.
Sounds good - let me know when
Quote from: squalie on June 04, 2014, 06:45:19 AM
Ah - got it. Didn't realize they replaced them, just thought they added more.
That's too bad as the Desert Rat list in Villers was really cheap! :D
It is still a "valid" book as far as I know
Was wondering about that. I have the Market Garden book and Overlord book that I read in bed every night. Bought a bunch of the older books off of Dean Dodge.
I have a few lists made in EasyArmy and they're all 1650 points is that right? I've made an 11th Armoured Recce squadron (Market Garden), Desert Rats 7th (Overlord), and an 11th Armoured from the Taurus Pursuant PDF.
The theme is always the same:
2 Cromwell HQ, Crom ARV (possibly 2 Crom CS)
3 Crom, 1 Challenger
3 Crom, 1 Challenger
Motor Platoon, 4 M5's and dudes
4 M10's
Now, depending on the list I also have 4ea 25 pdr's, 4 Sextons, 2 Crusaders, and 2 Cromwell CS added to the above.
- Considering I already have 8 Cromwells and 2 Challengers, do I really need the M10's? They almost seem redundant and would free up a lot of points
Since this is a Tank army (M10 conundrum), it seems I could benefit from the Cromwell CS, Sextons and Crusaders. Without them I only have the motor Platoon for infantry and nothing for AA. Is AA that important? I suppose only when you need it! :D
The Motor Platoon looks cool so I think it stays and helps the foot fellows keep up with the Tanks.
25 pounders seem handy, but what to drop for them?
I don't understand the game well enough to realise the value difference between the Desert Rats Reluctant/Veteran and the other lists Confident/Trained.
Is it reeaaaally that important to have platoons of 4 tanks over 3?
More newbie questions to follow...
Quote from: squalie on June 06, 2014, 09:58:07 PM
Was wondering about that. I have the Market Garden book and Overlord book that I read in bed every night. Bought a bunch of the older books off of Dean Dodge.
I have a few lists made in EasyArmy and they're all 1650 points is that right? I've made an 11th Armoured Recce squadron (Market Garden), Desert Rats 7th (Overlord), and an 11th Armoured from the Taurus Pursuant PDF.
The theme is always the same:
2 Cromwell HQ, Crom ARV (possibly 2 Crom CS)
3 Crom, 1 Challenger
3 Crom, 1 Challenger
Motor Platoon, 4 M5's and dudes
4 M10's
This is known as a "Direct Fire List" - it does very well versus other
tank lists. However, as you are playing LW. In LW the Germans just really struggle to compete with a LW Tank list - there are a couple from Desperate Measures and Herman Goring that are in my opinion competitive but for the most part - you are facing German infantry supported by tanks. In which case a tank is a tank is a tank - not making much sense am I? Of course it is a tank. Exactly - infantry don't care if it is a Cromwell or a Sherman or even a Lee or a Grant - they have a big gun or two and two MGs. And, honestly infantry prefer you to have your Fireflies or Challengers - why? No HE & 1 less MG = less defensive fire.
Quote from: squalie on June 06, 2014, 09:58:07 PM
I have a few lists made in EasyArmy and they're all 1650 points is that right? I've made an 11th Armoured Recce squadron (Market Garden), Desert Rats 7th (Overlord), and an 11th Armoured from the Taurus Pursuant PDF.
Sorry - yes - so far this year that is correct!
Quote from: squalie on June 06, 2014, 09:58:07 PM
2 Cromwell HQ, Crom ARV (possibly 2 Crom CS)
3 Crom, 1 Challenger
3 Crom, 1 Challenger
Motor Platoon, 4 M5's and dudes
4 M10's
Now let's get back to infantry and your list.
You have no Recce.
So? Well, some people (alot) play without Recce. So no big deal - well in a direct fire list it actually is a big deal - more so than other lists that have indirect fire. Direct fire usually means more points which equals less shots (alough most British lists have 6lbsders in them - if they can get 'em) and without Recce to reveal GTG (gone to ground units) you will struggle to hit with your direct fire. Here let me show you some math (sorry - only way):
+Infantry (let's say Veterans) 4
+concealed in their fox holes 1
+GTG (they didn't move or shoot) 1
+long range 1
= 7s on a 6 sided dice
Which means your direct fire list has to get to short range. With a British list that means you just lost your Semi indirect fire.
Quote from: squalie on June 06, 2014, 09:58:07 PM
2 Cromwell HQ, Crom ARV (possibly 2 Crom CS)
3 Crom, 1 Challenger
3 Crom, 1 Challenger
Motor Platoon, 4 M5's and dudes
4 M10's
Is it reeaaaally that important to have platoons of 4 tanks over 3?
Let's talk a little bit about math again as it really come into "play" in this game. With this list you have four platoons total. Which means on the half on half off missions - of which there are quite a few - you will only have two platoons on (with your HQ warrior teams). Now, this is usually how it goes with Tank lists - you have few platoons because of the point cost = the way it is. However, with Recce instead of your M10s you should have enough points for a 6th platoon. However, before you scrap this list - try the darn thing out! Facing a tank list you will think this is a fantastic list - because to be honest it is a pretty darn good list. It will move quickly and have a pretty darn good amount of shots heading towards your opponent.
Now, back to math - three tanks over four. Is it important? Well, yes & 'know' -> morale checks are made when you lose
over half of your platoon. When you lose two tanks in your three tank troop you have to make a morale check. When you lose two tanks in a four tank troop you are not over half. Simple enough?
Quote from: squalie on June 06, 2014, 09:58:07 PM
I only have nothing for AA. Is AA that important? I suppose only when you need it! :D
Well - it can be - the Germans have a few lists with Jets in them that cannot be intercepted by Allied planes and those that use Air either use Rudel or Jets. Now, is it important to shoot planes down - if you can great! If not hunker down and hope your opponent flubs one of his many roles getting the pesky planes to hit.
1. Must rolls planes in = needing 5 or 6's
2. Must make sure not to have own units within 12-16"'s(there are a couple of list that allow them to come closer)
3. If your units are 2" from a tree or a building they have to range in
4. Now they have to face any AA guns
5. Now they can finally roll to hit
So, with all that - who uses AA? Well to be honest lots of people who have tank lists.
Why?
They need more direct fire shots to dig out enemy infanty or at least to pin them down before assaulting them.
Quote from: squalie on June 06, 2014, 09:58:07 PM
I don't understand the game well enough to realise the value difference between the Desert Rats Reluctant/Veteran and the other lists Confident/Trained.
R - Reluctant = worst motivation rating = needing 5's to stay in the fight
C - Confident = good motivation= needing 4's (50% to stick around)
F - Fearless = best motivation = needing 3's
but what does that mean? It means if you assualt with your Desert Rats they probably won't counter attack a second time and will have to break off. Meaning you have to shoot more enemies dead before going in (which means a round or two more longer)
C - Conscript = worst level of skill (needing 5's for skill checks or 2's to be hit)
T - Trained = decent level of skill (needing 4's for skill checks or 3's to be hit)
V - Veteran = best level of skill (needing 3's on skill checks or 4's to be hit)
This means your Desert Rats while they may not stick around in an assault will hit more times. They will also be harder to hit than their trained "equals".
For the record - I play veterans & either CV or RV
Any questions or is it game time?
Quote from: squalie on June 06, 2014, 09:58:07 PM
2 Cromwell HQ, Crom ARV (possibly 2 Crom CS)
3 Crom, 1 Challenger
3 Crom, 1 Challenger
Motor Platoon, 4 M5's and dudes
4 M10's
Have you seen the Comets yet?
Just pictures. As soon as Tramps has the book and Tanks - I will have the book and Tanks. :D
LOL - they are a tankers dream! :excited